Trying to identify this
Tone Ring

Well, I can’t understand why nobody has snapped up the Civil War banjo from 1887 for only $4500.
About a year and a half ago, I emailed the guy and gently explained when the Civil War happened.
And why the chances of him ever getting $4500 for that banjo are pretty damn remote…
Maybe someone here can convince him…

ebay.com/itm/civil-war-banjo-d...32-2357-0

Hi I'm new here and love old stringed instruments, I'm a guitar player really (sorry) but just spotted a strange instrument to me, It's fretless, fairly plain, has 6 tuning pegs on the head (a seventh half way down the neck), steel rimmed open back. W.Temlett and a logo stamped on back .
No strings or bridge and a nasty 'newish' chrome mandolin tailpiece. I'd love to know more and I think it has me hooked to buy, restore, and learn to play! 

I've used google to try and nail it but other than learning about W.Temlett, no real success.

So any help on just what it is, strings, bridge, tailpiece replacements,tuning, anything really, and to help me buy it, a possible fair price (its in ok condition, old skin intact) Sorry if these sorts of questions are unanswerable without images or maybe not allowed.

Many thanks in advance and apologies if Im asking unacceptable questions.

The (possibly) Bullock banjo I just got from the Meisel auction has a unique tensioning system that appears to be the only way to definitively ID and date the thing. No luck so far, but Rives McDow, who is here on the Hangout, has suggested it could be a snare drum tensioner that was repurposed. Again, no clear match yet, but there were similar drum fastener patents from the 1880s into the early years of the 20th Century.
Has this possible connection er been explored here? How may times have We heard that the banjo is a drum on a stick?

Anyone have info on Supertone banjo tone rings ?

Hi
I purchased an Abbott banjo for £40,I believe it to be a mirabile and one of Abbott’s top banjos,there’s no other markings on it other than on the heel and it’s in really good condition..the tuners are Grover and seem to be original incl the 5th,although this is not geared..there were 2 holes in the fret board which I filled with ebony and also a W.N was inlaid at the first fret,which I also removed and filled with ebony..I changed the head,cleaned the tuners of many years of grime and gave it a good polish..I think it looks lovely and it plays really nice.It has light steel strings but I think it should have nylon,not sure..advice? ..I have no intention of selling it but,does anyone know what these are worth in this condition,I have friends ask me and I have no idea..any suggestion or more info will be greatly appreciated..
Many thanks
Andy

Can anyone tell me the manufacture date of a Gibson PB-800 tenor banjo neck? The serial number is 900305. Thanks!

another one that has me stumped. Is this a converted tenor (fretboard/neck extension added to a tenor neck?) or a plectrum? the neck and pot look vintage to me, however I cant determine details if this is a pieced together banjo or a luthier build neck on a vintage pot. I'm interested in the details: brass nut, tunneled 5th string, brass tonering. Do any of these parts look similar to any builders to help me better understand exactly the parts that are making whole here?

Hello,
I was wondering if anyone would know what year this banjo would be?
Thanks for your help.
Scott

Greetings all!

This is my first post -- and I'm a rather new member -- so do forgive me if I've posted in the wrong place, or in the wrong manner.

I was just perusing Facebook marketplace when I discovered an intriguing banjo -- being sold for only a few hundred dollars, presumably because the seller is unable to positively identify the banjo. I've included two pictures from the original listing -- one from the front, one from the back, showing a resonator with a mother-of-pearl (?) inlay of what appears to be the US national emblem (the bald eagle holding an olive branch in one claw, and thirteen arrows in the other). I've also included a picture of the headstock.

About the banjo, the seller says: "Vintage 5-string bluegrass banjo. New Remo topcoat head. New D’Addario medium nickel wound strings. Chromed brass flathead tone ring under the hood - really gives it some power. No names or markings on it. Railroad spikes at frets 7, 9, & 10."

Has anyone seen a banjo like this? Does anyone have any inkling what it is? It seems unlikely that it's only worth the few hundred dollars the seller is asking, but I'm a new banjo player, so perhaps I'm naive. : )

Well, have been talking about this guitar on the "Meisel Auction Banjo!" thread (https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/377056/#4798141 ) but I think I'll move it to its own thread.

I've spent today doing online research on the Lion Banjo Company of Rock Rapids, IA ,1893-1895. In a nutshell, they started in early 1893 with $35,000 (over $1M in today's money) in capital and a building. By May of 1895, they were gone...about 24mo of business, 1894 being their only full year. I've been reading the Rock Rapids newspapers (online from their library's website) from the period and there isn't much more to tell beyond that. Announcements of the Board of Directors, lists of stockholders, blurbs about how production is doing well and the occasional mention of large orders (75 to some nearby music store with expectations to sell oodles of them).

The newspapers report that 5 banjos were built for the Worlds Fair (1893) and that even fancier models with "necks of Hungarian Ash, circles of gold, silver accents and mother-of-pearl appointments". I assume the "circles" are the rim...and likely gold plated. 20 more instruments were going to be made for the fair and space had been rented there. There is some mention of "curly walnut" too...

Initial production was to be started with employees lured away from Chicago instrument makers. From reading between the lines, they were indeed building all instruments in house. I had speculated that the guitars might have been built by Chicago jobbers...but now I'm convinced they brought the 'jobbers' to Rock Rapids.

They usually mention just Banjos and Mandolins. I found only one or two references to guitars. One of the references was a purchase by a local banjo teacher who also bought "their finest guitar @ $100". That would be equivalent to a $3,000 guitar today! I don't know how much the banjos sold for but feel they would probably have been in line with such other makers like Stewart.

I have contacted both the Lyon County Historical Society (IA...there's a Lyon County MN only 1.5 hrs north of there...got that mixed up somehow) and their local "Depot Museum" and hope to get some further info and maybe some pix of the banjo and mandolin they are supposed to have.

Anyway, I've been giving the guitar a thorough going-over. I still can't find my inspection mirror but I've been able to peer inside a bit with a strong flashlight.

I've attached pix of the front, back and a shot of the scalloped fretboard.

The guitar needs work. It is actually pretty playable right now, but the closer you look... The top has bellied up, tilting the bridge towards the fretboard. Cracks in the soundboard on the tailpiece side of the bridge. On a ladder-braced guitar, this belly often produces an opposing 'dish' in the soundhole area, usually giving the fretboard extension a bend downwards. One crack in one of the sides. Yup, this one has all of the above. Funnily, the neck from the 1st to 12th fret is perfect. Flat, just a tiny relief, etc. After the 12th fret it dives off substantially. So as long as I'm playing above the 12th fret, it sounds and plays great. I've got it tuned a full step low (DGCFAD) and the strings that came with it are nylon (though the basses are a tad rusty). The bridge doesn't move when tuning...and I can't find or hear any evidence of loose bracing...but there are probably are several. The good thing about all this is that the neck probably doesn't need a reset. I find no evidence if it ever having been reset, though it is possible they just did a really good job. The bridge has been off. I think it is a replacement as it is very tall/thick for the period.

I've noticed some anomalies, like the little braces glued to the sides. They run up from the kerfing on the back to within about 1/2" of the top kerfing...not all the way. I've never seen that. The kerfing is very sharp, very triangular. Usually kerfing has the corners cut off so it isn't a true triangle section. Nope, this stuff is pythagorean. This guitar has no binding and no purfling. The top and back meet the sides and done. Because of this, I would guess that this is one of their "less fancy" models. Looking at the back bracing, I found one with a good-sized knot in it. It looks contemporary with the rest of the braces...but comon', an obvious knot right there in the soundhole? Who was the quality manager! I want his name!  Well, maybe his great-great-grandkids will apologize. 

None of the above surprises me. I would have been more surprised if it was perfect. Fortunately none of the repairs are beyond my capabilities. However, I'm kinda stuck trying to decide what to do with it. I bought it because I thought it might get me started on building Parlor-type guitars. Ok, that worked. I really like the size and the design...I'm going to use it as a basis for my own guitars, take measurements, etc., etc. What to do with the guitar itself will depend on how rare it actually is. I've never even heard of another. I don't know how many were made. If they were reasonably common, I wouldn't hesitate to completely and properly repair it...but if it is one of a kind...maybe I should offer it to the museum unrestored?

Hi all! I'll spare you all the story of how I came upon this instrument, but I was hoping someone could help me get a better sense of what this is and its relative value. If it's a little hard to make out in the photo, it's numbered "7584" and other part says "TRADE" above and "MARK" below the "SSS."

From what Internet sleuthing I can do, it seems that it could be pretty old, but I have an amateur eye. Thanks!

Hi! Do you guys have any idea what kind of banjo this? Maker, year etc.

Thanks

The Vega Style N I just bought has 17 frets, 28 hooks and the pot is 12" OD. The hold down ring is grooved, not notched. The serial number is stamped 56356 on the rim and the neck brace.

Is this pot size and number of hooks fairly common? Is the year 1922-24?

A good friend of mine passed away and I was recently given this Vega Little Wonder by his family. Don't know what year it was made or if it is a conversion from a tenor. There is no logo on the head-stock. Looks like the tuners are much newer. Don't know if this is a Vega neck. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Also curious what the value would be. Adding more pictures on my home page's Media.

My FIL was selling this banjo and I thought I would grab it and give it a go. It's a Silvertone with bird's eye maple and it's in decent shape.

If anyone has any history or can point me to any links to the manufacturer, I would appreciate it. Google wasn't much help.

Cheers!

I have read a couple of long-standing forum posts which cite Greg Rich with the first use of Gibson Blackjack/Crowe banjo-inlay Pattern. Greg Rich can verify or refute the following story that I was told first-hand when I bought the "Chrome/Walnut Banjo" that Jim Grainger made that I believe may comprise the first use of the Blackjack/Crowe banjo inlay pattern. I bought this banjo because it had, in Jim's and also my opinion, captured an authentic, Gibson pre-War banjo tone and volume. The fact that this banjo is a remarkable work of craft and art, made almost entirely of Appalachian materials, and representing the talents of an elite group of Appalachian craftspeople and artists, just made it better. Jim Grainger's Chrome/Walnut banjo is a very fine example of Appalachian Americana, and represents a singular example of some of the finest-work that a diverse group of exceptionally-talented American craftspeople and artists have collectively produced in the last 90 years.

The story of the rediscovered-Gibson inlay and associated construction of Grainger's Chrome/Walnut banjo is that Greg Rich and Jim Grainger were digging through disparate boxes of the old Gibson files together. Together, at the same time, they discovered drawings of several beautiful. but unused banjo fingerboard inlay patterns that were sent to Gibson for approval by a subcontractor in the 1920's. Several of these inlay patterns were not purchased by Gibson, were totally forgotten, and were never used.

Jim just happened to have a commission for a banjo and wanted it to have the exact-sound of the 1932 RB-4 banjo that Jim had always played at Mike Longworth's house while growing up in the 1950's. This RB-4 was later loaned to Earl Scruggs for his recording of "Ground Speed" on the Foggy Mountain Banjo album. While Gibson pre-War banjos have a wide variety of tones, Jim Grainger had an ear-bug for this particular pre-War banjo sound, which is one of the classic sounds that some substantial fraction of the small group of original flathead Gibson banjos of the early 1930's had.

Having created banjos, dulcimers, and other instruments for decades, and including over a hundred brass archtop to flathead conversion rings that Jim made while attending a Tennessee Technical College in his late teens, for this commission Jim sought to recreate the sound of Mike Longworth's 1932 RB-4 model Gibson banjo (that Mike later sold). He used walnut for the neck and historical-style figured burl-resonator from a walnut tree that he cut down on his father-In-law's property on top of a mountain in Tennessee. Jim then made an exact copy of the neck from Sonny Osborne's pre-war Granada using a pantograph, and added a high-grade, dark and even, bound ebony fingerboard with side dots.

Jim and Bob Cathey worked closely together for a very long time, and through numerous iterations, to produce the Grainger/Cathey tone ring that was a based on a long-time favorite, RB-3 (not RB-4) Gibson pre-war ring that Jim had, that sounded like the Longworth/Scruggs RB-4. The original correspondence between Jim and Bob that was used to guide the many iterations first of the metal composition, and then hand-machining of the interior and exterior profiles of the ring, which later evolved into the Stull No. 4, are still on file and can potentially be viewed at Jim's old store, Custom Fretted Instruments in Sparta, Tennessee.  Many people on this Forum have noted in diverse posts that the combination of a Cox rim and either a Cathey No. 4 or Stull No. 4 tone ring produces a desirable and compelling Gibson pre-War banjo tone and volume.  

One frustrating and highly significant detail that Jim and Bob ran into while attempting to exactly duplicate the final-proportional mix of metals that comprised  Jim's pre-War RB-3 ring was that the proportions (ratios) of metals used in creation of the ring are different than the proportions in the final, cooled ring.  Chemical processes occurring in the mixing, heating/cooling, and sand-casting process such as vaporization, adsorption, absorption, and precipitation alter the ratios of metals as the ring is created.  Having only the final ratios of ingredients to work from, Jim and Bob had to repeatedly experiment to eventually derive the correct ratio of ingredients needed that would result in the final composition of Jim's pre-War RB-3 ring.  Additionally, after exactly copying the exterior and interior profile of Jim's pre-War RB-3 ring, through further experimentation and numerous iterations, Jim added a subtle modification to the curve of the interior profile of the new ring in order to achieve the exact sound that Jim wanted.

Years later it was determined that Jim's modified-interior profile could not be exactly-duplicated by the use of a new CNC machine, so Jim said that the early batches of hand-machined rings, such as the one in this Chrome/Walnut Banjo had a subtly-sweeter sound up the neck than the later Stull No. 4, CNC-machined rings. The difference was so small that preference for Jim's original interior profile or the later CNC-profile is just a matter of individual taste.  Jim preferred the older hand-machined rings because he frequently used the "B" right-hand position (at the base of the neck) when playing up the neck that learned largely from watching Earl-play repeatedly at the Grand Ol' Opry and other venues, and that is where Jim's "subtle-sweeter" tone-difference was most apparent.  

Jim could have made the rim for his new banjo himself, as had made many banjo rims in the past, however, he already had a special, superb-sounding Gibson-style rim that was produced on Jimmy Cox's unique and wonderful rim-machine that seemed a natural match for the new Grainger/Cathey tone ring.  Jim then had Master Engraver Scott Pilkington (still on the internet, August 2021) perform exceptionally fine and deep hand-engraving on the armrest, tension hoop, and tailpiece before having the hardware chrome-plated at a Tennessee shop to the same specifications of the 1932 Gibson RB-4's. Scott was sufficiently proud of his work that he engraved his name and title as Engraver discretely, in authentic art-deco style, on the tailpiece. Scott's engraving on the hardware features many motifs present in the neck-fingerboard inlay.

At this point, Jim had Joyce Carroll, a talented musician and artist who did (and probably still does) all of the inlay-work at Jim's store, produce the abalone fingerboard inlays and a pearl truss-rod cover for the banjo. Each abalone inlay was subsequently engraved and finished with inlay-blackening by Joyce, which further elevated the artistic-qualities of this banjo. Her pearl truss-rod cover features an almost unbelievably intricate and tasteful design, so that the truss-rod cover standing alone almost qualifies to be a singular work of art.

This neglected banjo neck inlay-pattern, produced by some long-forgotten designer, is now beloved not only on Jim Granger's Chrome/Walnut Banjo, but also on many banjos of Greg Rich as is discussed in detail in other Forum entries archived on this site.

Jim Grainger passed away in November of 2016, and I miss him horribly. I am just the current owner of this banjo. I will defer to Greg Rich, Jimmy Cox, Scott Pilkington, the first owner of this banjo (who traded it back to Jim in a purchase of a pre-War Gibson), and Joyce Carroll (who still works at Custom Fretted Instruments as far as I know), or anyone else who could have first-hand knowledge of Jim Grainger's use of this inlay pattern, it's discovery by Greg and Jim in the Gibson archival materials, or regarding any detail of Jim Grainger's construction of the Chrome/Walnut Banjo. 

As side notes, I do not believe that the photograph on the wall of Jim's shop that shows one of Jim's banjos being played on stage at the Grand Ol' Opry by Blake William's in Bill Monroe's Band is this Chrome/Walnut Banjo - that was a different banjo that Jim made for Blake. The Chrome/Walnut Banjo is also very different than the unfinished, last-banjo Jim was working on in his shop when he died - that banjo is completely different. although for some years Jim's son thought that one was the same as the Chrome/Walnut Banjo, which Jim's son had never seen. Grainger's Chrome/Walnut Banjo is unique.  Jim also had a beautiful and colorful, hand-crafted leather strap made especially made for this banjo.

As a last step in the construction of the Chrome/Walnut Banjo,  Jim burned his name, address, and the date of banjo construction into the interior of the rim, with the date being "May 1995". If anyone else used this inlay pattern before May, 1995, it would almost have to be Greg Rich, and he will know if the Granger Chrome/Walnut Banjo has the honor of being the first use of this captivating banjo-inlay pattern, or if one of Greg Rich's banjos can claim that small - but hopefully interesting - distinction.

This is an archival article from Bluegrass Unlimited in 1968 on Bill Emerson. Just before he and Cliff Waldron formed The New Shades of Grass.

"In 1959 Bill left the Country Gentlemen and joined Bill Harrell. That year he won the banjo contest at Warrenton and cut “Eatin’ Out Of Your Hand”, “One Track Mind” and several others for Starday with Harrell. A number of other pick up recording dates were made during this period (1959-1961), with Buzz, Pete Pike and others, not all of which were released.

Around this time Earl Scruggs designed a new banjo for Vega. Bill won the first one off the line at a July 4th contest at Luray, Virginia in 1960."

Who knew?

I have put this in the Collector's Corner because I think it will be of interest to collectors and people interested in banjo history more than playing the actual music.

Academia (particularly those influenced by the "folk revival") has painted a picture of banjoists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as being "classical" I'm not sure where this came from, perhaps it was a misinterpretation of the popular style of evening wear for concerts, or possibly that it was common to read notation for banjo. But somehow people have been given the impression that the banjo was "classical".

There were a few banjoists that pushed classical music on the banjo with varying success. The most well known (now and in his time) was Alfred A. Farland.

From what I can tell, people liked the idea of Farland but when it came to actually listening to him or hiring him it was a different story. Farland did not have a strong projection when playing, which was a problem when there is no amplification.

In a 1956 interview in "Hobbies Magazine" Fred Van Eps said "I have always been a strong believer in restricting the banjo to the type of music for which it's suited. To my way of thinking, the late Alfred Farland, my Plainfield neighbor who died May 5, 1954 at the age of 88, was a pathetic example of the banjoist who goes wrong. All his professional career Mr. Farland tried to adopt the banjo to types of classical music for which it was unfitted. (FVE and Farland were fairly close friends).

Vess Ossman was critical "classical banjo" too saying in an interview while on a tour of England when asked about it; "It is not my opinion that matters, but that of the public. In the States the public literally will not have classical music on the banjo. I play it, and the best of us play it; but if we want to charm, we have to bracket a classical excerpt with a two-step or ragtime piece."

He continues...

"The greatest experience I ever had in the States was when I played at the Philadelphia Exposition in the Great Hall, which was packed to the very back row, and holds twelve thousand people. I was told I was absolutely audible in every part of that huge auditorium."

What Ossman left out was that Farland was initially scheduled to play that concert but after a rehearsal it was found that Farland's playing could not be heard beyond the immediate front benches of the auditorium.

And the "classical music" that they were playing were excerpts of well known and popular pieces.

Farland continued with teaching and selling the banjos and strings he assembled or had made (there is evidence that he had employees working for him assembling/finishing/shipping banjos and that he was actually making the strings he was selling).

Farland offered a subscription concert thing where one could write him, then locally promote a concert. If that person could sell enough tickets then Farland would travel to you and play. He also tried to work his music as educational, offering concert programs for schools of all ages. One of the ABF members was a fan of Farland and was able to promote one of these subscription concerts. The people he sold tickets to liked when Farland played "Home Sweet Home" or "Old Folks at Home" with variations but did not care for any of his classical stuff. This same member bought a banjo from Farland. It was complete with the always on harp attachment and steel head. He sent it back and told Farland to make it sound like a banjo.

Farland was known for his extensive use of "tremolo". This is not like Spanish guitar tremolo but instead the index finger is waggled back and forth across the melody playing string while the accompaniment is played with the thumb. With this he would try to imitate the sustained notes of the violin.

He developed repetitive motion injuries in his right hand (likely from all that tremolo) and started using a leather plectrum with an elastic loop that he could attach to his first finger which allowed him to switch between using a pick for tremolo and fingerstyle for the rest. He also went deaf.
He became the first president of the American Banjo Fraternity when it was organized in 1948.

After a series of family tragedies he lived out his last days alone working as ticket taker for the local movie theater.

Thanks to Marc D. Smith for sharing his collection with me to scan, here is a sample of some of Farland's arrangements as well as one of his own compositions. So get you tremolo finger ready and have a look!

I find it interesting that most of these are Romantic era and not Classical.

archive.org/details/5th-air-va.../mode/2up
archive.org/details/gypsy-rond....-farland
archive.org/details/la-castena....-farland
archive.org/details/la-matinee.../mode/2up
archive.org/details/la-paloma-....-farland
archive.org/details/menuet-a-l.../mode/2up
archive.org/details/overture-t....-farland
archive.org/details/traumerei-....-farland
archive.org/details/tripping-t....-farland

Starts at 34:09 of today's Gruhn broadcasts.  Carving, serial numbers, tone rings, etc.  https://fb.watch/7ETwYcKc-b/